S: Hey, sorry I missed you, I got in about four minutes after you called.

W: That's alright, I was looking at these Japanese electronic paper dolls I found on-line. Of course they ended up being overtly pornographic.

S: Paper dolls...

W: Yeah, they wink, giggle, pull off their pants... It hurts my brain.

S: (laughs) It's time to watch out though when you get turned on...

W: Well, My country hasn't had an atom bomb dropped on it so I don't seem to get turned on by the same things, I wish it had, but... Anyway when I called earlier you said you were busy with some chemicals...

S: Oh yeah, I was getting this sticky glue off some pieces of Formica for a piece I'm working on for the children's museum.

W: What's the piece?

S: It's an entry archway... They're doing a show about invention... It's called "the spark of invention"

W: I'd read that you'd done some work for children's exhibits. Art and science exhibits. That's pretty neat.

S: Yeah, I'm with a group of artists right now called Jump-start. There's a Jump-start in San Antonio too that's a dance group, this is an artist run, very loose deal, they get city funding from culture contracts to do some kind of project every year. The last few years we've done an exhibit called berzerkworks, the idea being to get science and art to east side, underprivileged kids.

W: That's great.

S: Yeah. it's kind of neat. Some of the people have brought in bogus projects though. There was one guy who just sort of took off with the money and never came back. It's this real loose organization of slacker artists who get a little funding to help out kids.

W: Well, it's heartening to know that artists who put dead squids in electrified antifreeze are having sway over the kids. Maybe there's some hope after all.

S: They can grow up to make electronic paper dolls...

W: We don't need atomic bombs, we have Steve Brudniak.

S: (Laughs)

W: Letsee, where should we start? How about you talk about any projects you've been working on.

S: Is it recording?

W: I think so, you'll have to speak up though.

S: So whatcha want ta know, Mr. Wiggins?

W: We can start out with your recent work and then make our way back to older stuff... I wanted to maybe hear some descriptions of pieces and a little about how they were constructed. One of the things that... Well the first time I saw any of your work, at least the first time I consciously registered it as Steve Brudniak's sculpture, was in that video that was playing for a while on access television.

S: oh yeah

W: And the thing that got me really excited about it, other than the obvious fact that it looked incredible, was watching you work, seeing how much work went into the pieces. Especially, there was the footage of you building the mummified squirrel shrine..

S: that was a bad hair day, too. Yeah, that's a pretty recent video and the squirrel mummy is a pretty recent piece. That's actually a good piece to start with to give an idea of what I'm working on now. I'm using chambers to sort of glorify things... I've been doing this ever since I started, really, If you look at my work, giving objects or a group of objects importance by enshrining them. That piece I used a squirrel mummy that I'd found underneath my house when I was doing some plumbing. I wanted to do a sort of King Tut style coffin, With a cast bronze likeness... I sound like the video. I've seen that video so many times I feel like I'm repeating everything I say. I'll have to send you a copy.... But I was real happy with that one. The stuff I'm working on now I'm using a similar style. The pieces look like very old chambers, some with doors, some without, made from a lot of iron pieces, I go to scrap yards.. I' been trying to find iron pieces that look like doors, portals or entryways... I'm kind of building around the door to where the door is actually pretty much the art piece.

W: what was it that you used for "device for administering penance"?

S: The center part was a waffle iron.. The outer circle was a dentists chair base... It was heavy, really heavy. You sweat when you hang it up. It's funny, a doctor bought that one in San Antonio. He can treat the people after they shock themselves with it... But it's the same similar door motif. I don't know exactly why, I don't consciously go "Hey I'm going to do another door piece" they just sort of end up end up as doors or chambers. I've just started noticing that in the last five or six years, that so much of what I've done is about containment...

W: I was going to say, whenever you have an organic element to a piece like the squirrel or the squid or, I guess you could consider the cast of your face organic, at least in contrast to the rest of the piece, it always seems like it's entombed, I don't know if it's mainly for preservation purposes.. It's always under metal or in antifreeze or...

S: Yeah, you hit that pretty correctly. There's a preservation idea... A lot of the work has to do with what's going on inside a person... The work's all pretty personal. I don't go for the jugular on any political issues.

W: In a lot of ways that's a good thing.

S: It's good for me at least.

W: I imagine it might seem odd to some people considering the media which you're using, and the fact that you're creating these sort of ancient-looking, inhuman industrial objects that a lot of people wouldn't think to equate with self.

S: People suppose it's going to be some sort of techno... A lot of reviews have been totally off the mark. Which I guess is ok, because I think you can take anything that's personal and relate it to a larger level of society.

W: Well, people who review art generally don't know shit anyway, else they'd be out making it.

S: (laughs) but some of them do...

W: They've got a thumb-worn thesaurus and they aim to use it.

S: Then you have your teachers too... But that might get me into some trouble...

W: Especially since you're working on stuff for kids.

S: I've always been self-taught in everything. My schooling ended after high school.

w: Hey, mine ended during high school.

S: Did it?

W: I'm an unredeemed drop-out. I haven't had any formal art or acting training either.

S: I think for people like me and you at least, that's the way to go.

W: Otherwise you tend to actually lose insight...

S: Also you don't get the naive, fresh attempt- ever. If you've gone to school, by the time you start making what you'd call serious art or writing, you've already been tainted with "this is how it's supposed to look". And I have no qualms against anybody who's studied, because there's obviously some fine artists and writers who've studied incredibly hard.

W: getting back to the organic element, the first time I talked to you, you had mentioned having surgery recently and you'd mentioned wanting to use pieces of your own body in the sculpture, you want to mention that...

S:(Laughs) you would bring that up wouldn't you? Leave it to Wiley. No, that's fine. I had a vasectomy recently... well, let me back-track a little bit and try to relate what I didn't finish because it actually leads into that. The chamber pieces I'm working on now, they're intended to hold blood, human blood. A lot of my work looks like catholic relics, religious relics, even Hindu and part of that is that it's just a good framework to work in, I'm not making much of a statement about that kind of stuff.

W: also religion can lend appropriately scary overtones.

s: Sure. And it's also a bit of my own religion that's going on. But the Catholics, I know at least, have some relics which are beautiful, that have saints blood in them. What I wanted to do was to enshrine the blood of my saints. People close to me, that have changed me over the years somehow. Encase a small portion of their blood under glass. We're talking physically about two pieces of glass, maybe a millimeter apart with a few drops of blood inside, so you'll open the chamber and see preserved blood, and there may be some sort of little statement, a plaque maybe reading "this is the blood of saint 'Bob'"... or whatever. Saint Mom. I haven't tried to approach my parents about giving blood yet... I also have an idea for another self-portrait. I did one self-portrait you mentioned earlier with the cast of my face.

W: "Self Portrait of the Artist in Perpetual Maintenance"

S: Yes that's the one. Anyway I wanted to do another self portrait just because an idea came up for it... I had another surgery about a year ago... actually the doctor I mentioned earlier removed a mole off of my shoulder, isn't that nice? Anyway, I told him I wanted to keep it and maybe use it for a piece. I started thinking about how I could get my blood as well... I wanted- the doctor who did the vasectomy showed me the little bit of vas deferens, they pull it right out and say, "here it is!", but they wouldn't give it to me.

W: Awww.

S: But this piece, there would be instructions on it, there would be all this tissue preserved in a chamber, and the instructions would be to, when the time is right and medical science permits, to clone me...

W: I was just about to suggest that! In the horrifying year six million they'll dig up this altar and find all this confusing genetic information.

S: Really, what to do with the stuff? There may even be a picture that shows what it should look like when it's finished.

W: In case of a disaster they can repopulate the human race with Steve Brudniak.

S: Yeah, so the final piece is another Steve... after I'm long gone, so It'll be a collaborative effort. Other than that I'm just working on this series of the blood in chambers, which are made to look very old. You saw the squid pieces with the tissue preserved in fluid, part of the idea is that we get old, the body decays, but we still carry around these fresh anxieties, fears and neurosis, whatever. They stay preserved from the moment of their creation.

W: It's an interesting direction you're taking. I think I read somewhere that you were edging away from some of the more mechanically and electronically intricate work because of it's lack of durability, the fact that you often needed to repair some of it...

S: Well, that's not necessarily the reason, part of it comes from... well a lot of the older work, which I don't think you're very familiar with, you should come by and I'll show you some, I've got two shows next year, one will be all older work, going back to about 1982. A lot of the older work is much shinier. The parts aren't aged. A lot more surreal and obtuse, too difficult to understand. They really didn't have as much meaning as the work I do now. A lot of it was really just experimentation. There were a lot of things I was experimenting with... I think as an artist, a good artist does almost nothing but experimentation, the whole idea is to play as far as I'm concerned. At least that's what I'm doing, artwise. A lot of what I did was play with things I thought were beautiful, wonderful... A lot of lasers, things also that I hadn't seen anyone use, or at least not effectively that I wanted to try and incorporate into my work, and I still do. But I think I've kind of used up a lot of that stuff. I had done pieces with neon and television parts, super high voltage, Tesla coils...neon sign transformer sparks, moving fluids...

W: Yeah, I don't want to sidetrack you but what was... there was one with some sort of magnetic fluid in a basin...

S: It's called ferrofluid. I did a piece called "The saturated well of baptism" That was a concrete, iron, brass baptismal basin...

W: I saw it working and it was pretty amazing but I couldn't understand what was happening...

S: There's magnetic fluid in the baptismal dish, there's a big strong electromagnet under the dish, and when the magnet comes up, the fluid forms this sort of anemone shape that's spiked, hundreds of spikes form out of this dome of fluid, the fluid sort of boils up into this dome. The fluid is just an oil with tiny particles of a ferrous material in it, it's about 2 dollars a cc. They use it in speakers and in place of an o-ring, where they want a seal without friction. A lot of people make a lot of comments about that piece, it's still at my house. I sold it but the guy hasn't come by to pick it up yet. It's also a hell of a thing to bust your toe on...

W: but back on topic...

S: Yeah, we were talking about using devices, electric and scientific media... I think as I get older, as a lot of artists do, I'm getting more subtle. The reasoning is...

W: You don't want people to see it as gimmicky?

S: To some degree. There are times I'll look back at older work and feel that way, "my god why did I do that?". But to be really realistic about it, I'm being less experimental and a lot more focused, narrowing my focus down. I used to kind of have a little bit too much pride about not repeating myself and I'm at a point now where I want to repeat myself.

W: If you've found a theme there's nothing wrong with exploring it...

S: Exactly, And I'm going back to some old themes that.. the things that I didn't do because I had this attitude of "i haven't tried this other really cool stuff yet and I want to do that before I focus on any one thing". So I'm doing a lot more series pieces which I never did much of before.

W: We should hook up when I come back to Austin, I'm supposed to come back to do some voice work, I think they thought I still lived in Austin. It's so funny that I moved away to try and find work and suddenly there's work back home. That's another thing about you and your work is that unlike a lot of artists that have left Texas as soon as they gained a little notoriety. What do you think it is that's keeps you there?

S: Well, for one, I cannot stand cold weather.

W: I guess you can't follow Chris Ware to Chicago then...

S: Well, you know it's actually kind of surprising how many Austin artists have stayed. I've got no problem with New York, I'm not too interested about showing on the West Coast.

W: I'm about ready to nuke the West Coast art scene after my experience in the LA museum of contemporary art.

S: Yeah, I heard about your little experience of walking in and seeing yourself.

W: People have told me that I over-reacted or, y'know that I got on some sort of a high-horse about "objectifying people" or whatever in that exchange, but the truth is that the guy was just such an abominable excuse for an artist. And it was the ONLY example of digital art in the whole museum and it was just mostly unaltered screen-grabs from video printed out at 72 dpi which looks awful. One of Matt Dillon in his underwear and one of me with a black eye like I'd been raped. And they're permanent fixtures in MOCA! It turns out I'd talked with the artist before, he'd sent me e-mail telling me how much he liked me and to look at his page. Of course his page is all links to pictures of Wesley Allen Dodd's child rape victims and male child-porn and, viola, a picture of me grinning like an idiot from a screen grab. I wrote him, I didn't freak out cause I'd actually dealt with this sort of thing before and told him to take off my picture and left it at that. He wrote back this hurt little message of "why?". He just couldn't understand. And then this piece ends up as a permanent fixture in the Museum of contemporary art in Los Angeles!

S: (laughter)

W: Yeah, it's just so stupid. I had a long drawn out argument with him, and he kept trying to turn it into a my art your art thing because he saw some of my digital art. He was like "well what makes it art? a photoshop filter?" and how it was the "same tired question of authorship". So creation is evidently passé. He'd found a hundred ways to rationalize the fact that he had neither talent nor ideas.

S: The really sad thing is that so many people accept it, legitimize it.

W: Well they've commodified art so much that it doesn't matter. A critic says it's worth this much so it's sold like an expensive appliance that doesn't do anything.

S: The art world right now is so... You know the story of the emperor's new clothes...

W: The thing is when you pull one of them out and try and make them account for it they just run in circles chomping at their own tails.

S: Fine art is so elitist now. What kills me is there are so many artists who are trying to make these big political statements, but who are they educating? They're educating the already educated. How many uneducated people off the street do you see at art openings?

W: And if you did, the work usually cant actually communicate anything unless the viewer is specifically schooled for it, or has heard the artists BS line.

S: That's a big beef of mine. If you can't get something from just looking at it then it's not visual art. If you have to read about it.. It's wonderful if it does have something, a story, a truth behind it, but when you get to a point where all you have is a statement... let's put it on paper. let's put it in writing.

W: Completely. If you can express it with words, do it. visual art should be reserved for things more complicated... subtle than an agenda. Things that don't work in words.

S: this is what a lot of people claim they're doing though, and I find a lot of the time it just isn't working. I enjoy looking at something and just coming away with a feeling from it that might have nothing to do with the piece.

W: That's a saving grace, especially if you're trying to represent something so vague and whacked out that probably no-one will see it your way.

S: As long as people come away with something from my art.

W: People thought I was taking a moral high-horse against this guy, but I mean if you look at the anathema site you'll see there's no way I can do that... He was just a crappy artist and a scumbag too so maybe I fell into those tactics. It also did make me mad that someone like that should be garnered recognition for their poorly executed jack-off fantasies. People say I'm jealous, and maybe! It doesn't seem fair or even sane. But then again, do I really want the approval of people that backward.

S: My take on it is, I have the best time I can possibly have, maybe next to sex or something, making art. To me, that's why I keep doing it. You get to a point where... It feels good to be appreciated, I'll admit I have a big old fat ego about it. I love to show my work, I like to see it written up, see pictures of it. But if none of that happened, I'd still do it. I'd still be making art. I sell it, I have to sell it, or otherwise I can't afford to make it.

W: One of the arguments that guy tried to use towards the end, after already presenting this art and a whole website that is boy-celebrity worship and at the same time he seems to hate these people... but he's elevating them to weird places... after that he goes on about how I can hardly criticize him because I'm the one seeking to get my face blown up on screens for every one to see and aren't I narcissistic and all that. Of course I told him that it was a stupid argument. I like to act a lot. Anything that comes with that is usually a drawback.

S: It's a separate thing from being an actor. I like fame on one level, but on another... Y'know it has nothing to do with making art. I also used to like, you know, taking my slides... putting together press packets, to me that was a blast, I don't like it much any more because now to me it's a hassle. I mean, I used to like to shave!

W:(laughter)

S: It's a different thing. There's an art to promoting yourself.

W: The thing that still gets me about recognition is having people project so much shit on you.

S: Especially for actors.

W: And people say, "you pay too much attention to it", other actors would not get disturbed by it... And I've thought about it too... That's how a lot of people become rich and successful is by manipulating people.. using those projections to cultivate this sort of fake identity that is nothing like the way they really are but people eat it up. It's still very confusing to me. I doubt I'll ever get very far in that vein.

S: Well the real people can see through it and that's what's important.

W: This has turned from an interview to me getting counseled. This is great, I'll have to call you back (laughter)

S:(laughs)

W: one last thing.. before when we talked, you had mentioned Mark Pauline, You want to talk about that or any other interesting run-ins or collaborations with other artists?

S: Well, Mark.. I met him in San Antonio, he was doing a talk... or showing some films. Angelie Gupta and Robert Tatum did a gallery show kind of specifically designed in his honor and put some of my work in. I just met him and talked with him a little... We shot some pool. He seemed to be more of a scientist and philosopher than what I expected. I expected someone a little more on the artistic side.. I mean there's tons of that, but it doesn't show so much on the outside... you would think you know, "an engineer". He's very into new technology... And I'm more into the ancient stuff... I don't know much about computers, I have a Mac plus.

W: The toadstools are good little computers... They hardly ever crash.

S: I write on it... But he has a real sweet guy. I was with the woman I was dating at the time, and she went to shake his hand and he lifted up his blown-off hand and she gasped and jumped back... That was probably the most interesting part of it. And he's a pretty good pool player. He's a very serious guy though...

W: He kind of scared me. I only saw him once when I volunteered at the Austin show. He didn't say anything to me, he just shot me a look of "who are you and why aren't you working?" that scared the bejesus out of me.

S: from what I understand cause I knew a lot of the people that worked at that show, and they actually used some of my junk, some of my scrap metal... and Angelie who I mentioned before was in change of all the film work. I think they did 16 millimeter and some video too. But she said that when he gets serious he gets really serious. You have to because you're dealing with so many people and so many dangers. He would not take any shit from anybody. But that's what art's all about too, he's having a blast, doing some of the most wacked-out stuff you'll ever see...

W: Yeah, they blow up dead cows...

S: I have another friend here Scott Mitchell who works closely with Mark, he works on a lot of the machines. He said he's not real delighted to see the animal carcass abuse. And they've done some mummy stuff as well. That mummy piece of mine was actually in the gallery show and Mark and I talked a little about mummies. He said he found.. in these subway tunnels, they find plenty of mummified animals.

W: I remember seeing a video where they fondued a dead cow in a giant boiling vat of extremely fetid cheese. The audience had to hold their noses or be overwhelmed by the smell.

S: we were talking before about people who do nothing but statement... People who do nothing but shock are a pet peeve of mine too.. and they can kind of fall into that, but it's what they do, shock is their whole genre...

W: They're very good at scaring people. When those flares looked like they were drifting down into the audience I got pretty antsy.

S: The shockwave cannon got me. I could actually see something come out.. without realizing it was the distortion...

W: What scared me the most was the Tesla Coil. I think those things are a lot more dangerous than people let on. When we were setting stuff up one of the women said that a lot of women would be running to try to get to the bathroom because the coil made women have their periods early...

S: I have a Tesla coil piece in the San Antonio museum...

W: Yeah but the one at the show was the biggest in the world...

S: Oh I don't know about that. Nikolai Tesla had the biggest one in the world.

W: someone told me that if you had a large enough Tesla coil you could destroy the planet...

S: Hmmmmm. If you get a chance, you should look for a book, I think it's called "Man out of time" It's as good as any fiction I've ever read. Tesla was a really wild guy, you would dig it. I've read about three biographies on Tesla, I used to be a big fan. My coil caught on fire, by the way. Right next to some Roschenburg paintings. Picture it...

W: Shit, talk about evoking fear.

S: Yeah, for my bank account.